Why couldn't she just have written 'Dear My-first-name'?

[strange_complex]

I've just received an email from a female student, addressing me as 'Miss X' - not at all an uncommon occurrence. I like to think I'm not the kind of person who would feel the need to go round with a stick up my ass about people getting my title wrong like this - except that the rest of her email goes on to demonstrate perfectly why, nevertheless, I do. Within three sentences, she has gone on to mention (in the context of possible dissertation supervisors for next year) two of my male colleagues - and both of them are referred to, entirely correctly, as 'Dr. Y' and 'Dr. Z'.

Just for the record, it's not that she hasn't had every opportunity of noticing that I am a Doctor, too. She took one of my modules last year, so would have seen it on the module documentation. Meanwhile, this year she is studying in Italy, and as such has received numerous emails from me in my capacity as Study Abroad coordinator, all of which included my full name and title in the signature file. Also, one of the male colleagues she mentions is of a very similar age to me - so this should rule out the possibility that she is assuming I am too young to have become a Doctor yet. All that's left is an apparent unconscious assumption that female academics are not equivalent in status to their male colleagues.

It's not the first time I've seen this, or the first time I've seen it coming from someone who is female themselves. I recognise that a lot of people don't really understand what academic titles mean, or how you earn them. But even if you don't know the fine details, I think it's generally clear enough that 'Doctor' is an honorific, earned title. Seeing female academics regularly stripped of it by underlying assumptions about their intellectual status, while their male colleagues are not, is just one more sign of how unbalanced gender relations continue to be.

Comments

[kissmeforlonger.livejournal.com]

This is a good reason for always introducing yourself formally and not allowing people to make their own minds up.

I have the sneaking suspicion that she approached you because you're less intimidating than those scary male doctors.

Students, you can't kill 'em, and you can't slap 'em round the head either.

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Actually, to be fair, she was replying to an email I'd sent her, drawing her attention to the fact that she'd need to start thinking about her dissertation while she was still in Italy - so her choice of me as correspondent wasn't really significant.

I'm perfectly happy with informality normally - I just get annoyed when people attempt formality, and reveal these rather ugly attitudes as they do so.

[the-lady-lily.livejournal.com]

Are you pointedly going to reply by signing yourself as Dr. Penny Goodman? Because that's where I'd be heading right now.

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Oh, I've done that plenty of times! And at least once I've actually edited their own email, beneath my reply, to show the correct title. Which is a very passive-aggressive thing to do, of course, but I'm all for passive aggression when it gets me the results I want!

[biascut.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't feel remotely bad saying, "Please address me as Penny or Dr G, and be very careful that you do not strip female academics of their professional qualifications whilst simultaneously attributing them to male academics!" But that might not be your style.

I obviously haven't worked in an academic job since getting my PhD, but I did get an email to Mrs Macsomething last term and immediately emailed back to tell the student in question that he could address me as Mary or Ms Macfarlane, but NEVER Mrs or Miss!

[smellingbottle.livejournal.com]

Absolutely agree with the first part of this. I co-teach two large undergraduate lecture courses with two different male colleagues, both (slightly) junior to me, and student e-mails are quite often addressed to us both, sometimes stripping me of my doctorate but almost always carefully retaining it for the male colleague. Whom I also include in my replies. I always address it at the beginning of my response e-mail. I have sometimes done so by using bold and a larger font.

I have no problem at all with taking students up on this. I think of it as also constituting something of a public service to other female academics. It wasn't a thousand years ago (I recently heard, to my unmitigated horror, from a female colleague in her 50s) that there was an assumption that the women in the department would provide refreshments when the externs visited. Because, obviously. what else would they be worrying their flighty heads about - research?

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Yes, I've replied to her email now, and I did decide to make a point about it. I answered her questions about dissertations and post-graduate study first, and then finished off with this:

"Finally, I would just like to draw your attention to something which you did, almost certainly unconsciously, in your email below. If you read through the opening and first paragraph, you will find that you have addressed me as 'Miss G', yet referred to two of my male colleagues only a few lines later by their correct title of 'Dr'. I'm sure you didn't mean any offence by doing this, but I wanted to mention it because, as a woman yourself (and particularly one who is contemplating doing an MA), I'm sure you would not like to think that we live in a society where female academics are not given credit for their professional qualifications, while male academics are. Please have a think about the implications of these forms of address, and be sure in future that you refer to all academic staff, whether male or female, by the titles which they have earned."

Maybe I'll move on to bold and a larger font the next time!

[biascut.livejournal.com]

Oh, good on you!

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Thanks! She replied apologising for calling me by an incorrect title, but did not really say anything to suggest that the wider gender issues had sunk in. Still, I tried!

[glitzfrau.livejournal.com]

I absolutely love this response. It's polite, pithy and pointed.

Permission to cut and paste in times of stress, need and incoherent rage?

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Sure, no problem!

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Just clicked through from your Silurians post. Good for you!

When I was going through customs at a US airport last year, the woman checking my passport goggled at it, goggled at me, and said, in bewildered tones, "You're a doctor?" I'm not sure if it was because I was female or scruffy or travelling economy or all three at once.

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Oh, three cheers for your icon of sheer genius!

But 'Gah!' about the passport lady. :-(

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

there was an assumption that the women in the department would provide refreshments when the externs visited

WHAT? ARGH!!!

* tries to calm blood pressure *

* fails *

GAH THAT'S HORRENDOUS!!

[swisstone.livejournal.com]

I had absolutely no idea this sort of stuff went on, but then being male, I probably wouldn't experience the phenomenon directly.

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it does. I'm probably particularly sensitive to it today, as a result of having read this (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-solnit13apr13,0,526991.story) (courtesy of matgb) earlier today - but, as I say, I've noticed the exact same phenomenon before anyway, and been annoyed by it. It's the fact that it's so obviously subconscious that really makes it so perfidious.

I'd be interested, actually, to know how often you (or any other male academics reading) get emails from students addressing you as 'Mr. Keen'. I get addressed as 'Miss' or 'Ms' fairly often by students - but of course most of those emails don't also refer to other members of staff, so don't include the stark contrast in forms of address that really annoyed me in this particular one.

[diffrentcolours]

I wish I were a male academic, just so I could say that I don't get e-mails from students addressing me as "Mr Keen".

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Even if you were, I'm sure they'd just write 'Mr. Pedant' instead. ;-p

[swisstone.livejournal.com]

Practically never. I strongly discourage that sort of formality with OU students anyway - it seems wrong when many of them are older than me. But even when they are formal, as they often are at the start of the year, it's always 'Dr Keen', and it was always 'Dr Keen' when I taught more traditional undergraduates (except in China, where I was 'Professor Keen'). I really am surprised that anyone wouldn't make the default assumption that anyone on the permanent staff was 'Dr Whoever'.

[smellingbottle.livejournal.com]

I followed the link and can feel my blood pressure is elevated. Absolutely bang on. Reminds me of a time when I was at a dinner party hosted by the (academic) parents of a friend I know from Oxford, when we were subjected to a barrage of assumptions from an unbelievably patronising older man about our educations and what we did for a living, bless our little hearts, oh and he was a great reader himself. In the end, she and I stopped him mid-flow and explained that, no, we hadn't gone to sixth-form or secretarial college in Oxford, we'd met when we were both doing doctorates at Oxford, no, not Oxford Brookes, the University of Oxford. His bewilderment was almost painful as he tried to prove to his own satisfaction that we were less clever than we claimed.

[steer.livejournal.com]

It's quite strange really. I can only assume it was a "doctors are men" subconscious assumption.

Recently I had an embarrasing moment when two women told me that they were about to start work in a hospital. "Oh, you're nurses" I asked. "No, doctors."

It wasn't a gender thing though. Honestly, they both looked about 20. They hadn't actually quite finished qualifying as doctors this was their last "field assignment" before being qualified.

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Oops! Bless you for being ready to recount your slip-up here, though.

Gender inequality

[tsdt.livejournal.com]

If you think that gender inequality is bad in England, try playing in the Antipodes. I found it seriously difficult to make various men actually acknowledge my existence in Australia, let alone recognise any of my better qualities. To be fair, this was on a farm in the middle of rural Tasmania, but still...

Re: Gender inequality

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Yes, I remember being quite shocked when reading Bob's account of how a male farm worker had addressed him about something that mainly involved you and completely ignored you, despite the fact that you were standing right beside him! Hope things are more civilised in Wellington.

[thebiomechanoid.livejournal.com]

usually: lecturing = doctorate : )
We have a young, attractive, feminine professor who is head of psychology, see (http://www.psychol.cam.ac.uk/pages/staffweb/clayton/). I was disgusted to hear other students joke about how many members of the rest of the (entirely male) department she slept with to get there. Jenny Clack is another female prefessor we have in the department. She's just slightly older but much less "pretty". No one made any comments about her position - it is truly sad when this happens.

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Gah! Were the students joking about it male or female themselves?

[a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com]

I get it all the time, except it's usually "Mrs" because of my advanced age ...And I'm told I look 5-10 years younger than I am!

And this is after I take time the first day of classes to instruct the students the proper form of address.

Generally, it's more men than women, but plenty of my female students do it.

[jholloway.livejournal.com]

I get the reverse effect -- students not infrequently call me "Dr. Holloway," although I'm not (yet). But my performance matches what they think of as an academic, I guess.

[mrkgnao.livejournal.com]

ARGH! There can be no excuses - that's just unbelievably crass of her. I'm not sure there's much you can do, per se, beyond, as people suggest, signing yourself pointedly as Dr.

Honestly, since academia is *still* male dominated you think women would be more inclined to support each other's right to be there.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

I can quote this? Obviously will remove all identifying thingies.

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Yes, absolutely. I'm all for helping to maintain general public awareness of the small-scale gender-snubs like this which go on every day. In fact, what I have done is to go back in and remove all specific information about both myself and the student, and then change the status of the entry from friends-only to public. So you can now quote it verbatim and / or link people here if you want to.

[miss-s-b.livejournal.com]

Thank you: http://community.livejournal.com/theyorkshergob/74082.html

[weepingcross.livejournal.com]

It's not just that omni doctores are men, but that all of some sorts of men are doctors. I've been automatically awarded a doctorate by interlocutors on a number of occasions, I can only assume because I've written a book and went to Oxford. I can't think of any of my female friends that applies to in order to check their experiences - which probably tells you something in itself.

[weepingcross.livejournal.com]

Although thinking about that it's more polite to assume someone is more qualified than they turn out to be.

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

Yes, to be fair I have from time to time been awarded honorary professorships by emailing students, too. But it happens much less frequently than being downgraded from my doctorate.

[internet-sampo.livejournal.com]

Why couldn't she just have written 'Dear My-first-name'?

Going to a Qquaker college ruined me and I tried to get my students to call me by my first name - and that never worked. Now I noticed that the junior faculty are calling me "Dr" even when I ask them to call me Bill.

Students usually call female professors "Miss" or "Mrs" more than they do male professors. I had two friends, a married couple, she had a Ph.D. and he had a masters. The taught in the same department and their students usually called her "Mrs L" and him "Dr L". Knowing this, every semester, I mention that it's important to make sure you know if your professors are doctors or not.

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

That's depressing, about the married couple. Good for you for doing your bit to tackle the issue with your students, though.

[robert-jones.livejournal.com]

This comment is not in any way intended to justify the sexism of your student, but I note in passing that there is a perfectly valid school of thought that holders of PhDs should be addressed in correspondence as Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs X, and that the title "Dr" should be reserved for those who hold higher doctorates. (I beg your pardon if you actually hold a higher doctorate, but I do not believe this to be the case.) Obviously, it ought to be consistent across male and female doctors, but I was struck by your suggestion that "Dr X" was the "correct title", when that is not universally agreed.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

I know people with PhDs who don't use their Dr title outside academia (I'm debating whether or not to myself), but I've never come across anyone arguing that it is correct to address someone who holds a doctorate and calls themselves "Dr" as anything but that within academia.

Out of interest, what is a "higher doctorate"? I've never heard of such a thing.

[strange-complex.livejournal.com]

...what is a "higher doctorate"?

They're basically what it says on the tin - a higher academic qualification for people who already hold a doctorate. The appellation and method of application varies from place to place, but at QUB for example they have a D.Litt., which is awarded on the basis of a portfolio of publications.

But as for the wider issue - no, neither have I.

[keris.livejournal.com]

I've quoted students' emails when they've addressed me as Miss E, to say to use Dr E or first-name, it's their choice which they want to use, but not to use Miss. One of the students in my lab I got really annoyed at as he would say "miss" when he wanted attention - it's not school any more!!!

The other day I got one of those emails asking whether someone can come and work with me for a summer. This one said the person had been looking at my webpages and was really interested in my research. They addressed me as "Respected Sir"... (it should be quite obvious from the photo on my webpage I'm not really a sir!)

[hieroglyphe.livejournal.com]

When I was at uni, we never used people's titles (academic or otherwise) in our department - though I'm not sure if this was because we were generally pretty informal, or if it was due to academics getting sick of being addressed by the wrong title, or a combination of both.

[spidrak.livejournal.com]

Ugh.

I usually just check their webpage to find the correct title, then use that, although in a repeated friendly email exchange it does get a litte awkward trying to decide at which point to change from using Dear Dr/Prof $SURNAME to $FIRSTNAME. I've never yet come across anyone who objected, but it's difficult to know if they're simply being too polite to let you know you've given offence.

None of this, however, is helpful when faced with a Chinese/Japanese name which is neither attached to a title, nor obviously male or female. I ended up just copying directly from their group's website and hoping!

[firefish.livejournal.com]

How very bizarre. I would never address one of the university staff as Miss or indeed Mr, not even the teaching staff who have not yet got their doctorates. I try and refrain from using such terms anyway, preferring to either use their first name because at uni, I think there is more the idea that while they are teaching us, they're not necessarily above us. Then again, I usually avoid any direct naming, preferring to just start my emails with Hello or just start straight into the mail, in case I should offend anyone!